TRUE CAR and ZAG Cyber Bandits, Parasites or Good for the Car Business?

Jim Ziegler asks...

I am hearing a lot of discussion about True Car and ZAG.  I continually scratch my head and wonder if  desperate dealers are doing the marketing limbo "How Low Can You Go?" 

Are we so bad at what we do that we have to line up and pay vendors to lose money? AND, who is giving these people access to your data that is used against you? 

 

Who owns these companies and what might be their ulterior motive?  Sometimes I ask questions to which I already know the answer. 

 

Am I wrong?


What do you think... JIM

 

 

Jim Ziegler's Guidance and Recommended Action Plan:

Ten Areas We Need to Concentrate on to Bring This Monster to It's Knees...

  1. Government investigation of ALL Data Aggregators taking consumer information from dealers' DMS. Sadly enough, dealers who do business with TrueCar are exposed to  liability charges. Cut off all access to unecessary data, no matter who takes it from the dealers DMS and make it illegal to "resell identifiable consumer data" and "transactional data".
  2. Educate Your Fellow Dealers; If anyone takes financial transactional data, they expose the dealer that allowed it to violations, especially if it is passed on to other vendors or shared.
  3. Educate Consumers to what they're doing with their information...
    a. You buy a car from a dealer, do you really want your personal information, and maybe even your financial information, passed along and sold and shared by "God knows who?"
    b. These People Charge the Dealer $300 which the dealers have to build into the deal
    c. Your Privacy and the Security of your Information could theoretically compromise your identity if you do business a company that takes data from the dealership.
  4. Educate Investors and potential investors they could possibly be mislead if anyone is telling them this is a safe investment because of all of the dealers pushing back, associations pushing back, and government regulators in many states coming after TrueCar's business model as NOT compliant, in some cases they're saying it is Not Legal.
  5. AMEX, USAA and all of their affiliates do not want the bad consumer relations this push back is creating with their members and customers.
  6. Cancel your dealership's Affilation with TrueCar. Tell people with TrueCar certificates that YOU don't honor TrueCar and you feel the company is NOT reputable. Educate consumers as to perceived data exposure if they buy from a TrueCar dealer. Make sure that each consumer knows that using TrueCar actually increases their vehicle cost by $300 to $400.
  7. Make the dealers selling at huge losses take all of those deals. Big problem right now is too many Nissan Dealers and others are taking huge losers to get the factory money. The TrueCar reverse-auction business model will continually push those numbers down until the factory money is non-existent. Consumers need to hear from many dealers, "We don't do TrueCar"
  8. Keep calling your National and State Dealer Associations demanding they get involved and stay involved... No excuses.
  9. Get the Manufacturers into the game. If GM, Ford, Toyota, and other majors change the rules about how we advertise and do business to protect the dealers, we can cut off their ability to set pricing. So keep it up at every dealer meeting. Call your Dealer Council Members and protest to your factory reps. Tell the manufacturers, if they want showroom and facility improvements, we need the ability to make fair profits.
  10. Tell everyone you know. Educate other dealers and industry people. Watch the Painter interviews... I believe this is the first time a vendor has publicly announced they intend to bring down the dealers and hijack our business, taking our profits and starving us out with our own data. Painter has said manufacturers and dealers should go bankrupt and he, in his God-like way "will control distribution..."
    When the TrueCar-Yahoo Deal kicks in we need to stand firm and "Just Say No" we don't honor TrueCar deals.

Read this article as a reference: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=%2F20110831%2FFIN... 

AND, if you doubt the mission... read this...  http://www.zag.com/websiteASSETS/whitepapers/ZAG-WhitePaper3.pdf

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Comment by Keith Shetterly on February 7, 2012 at 12:44pm

Michael wasn't always "the nice guy" from TrueCar on these threads.  With all these pages, it's a chore to dig it out, but he has positively changed his tune since then.

Comment by David T. Gould on February 7, 2012 at 12:38pm

Jim, based on what I have seen,  Michael Timmons, is the only individual from the TrueCar organization that has communicated on anywhere near a professional level. I encourage you to give him a shot at communicating your (our) needs and concerns. I have never met or spoken to  Michael Timmons. This comment is based solely on the couple of interactions  Michael Timmons has had within these automotive forums. Until proven differently, he is the point man I would consider for making inroads with TrueCar. I stand ready to be corrected on this. Just my opinion. dtg

Comment by James A. Ziegler on February 7, 2012 at 12:23pm

Is it time to back off and give TrueCar a rest?

When I started these blogs back on November 27th WE came together and voiced our opinions and the entire industry heard us. At the time I believe that TrueCar was the biggest threat to out industry that has ever existed...and that threat still exists in other vendors extracting, assimilating, reselling, re-purposing and sharing dealers' data from our DMS. 

The industry mobilized and we have prevailed. I am pleased we handed them some humility. They are arrogant, and consider themselves "superior" intellectually...and possibly genetically to us "Car Folks". How many times has Scott Painter talked Down to us saying we just don't get it? 

We cannot let our guard down or think we've won the war. There are companies like Edmunds and CarFax who need to come under close scrutiny. What possible reason could either of these companies have to extract dealer data? ...and then use our own information against us. If I were a dealer I would never give it up and would throw all intruders out of my DMS. Even if I were to allow them access, they should be paying us for the data they resell for a profit? Painter has said repeatedly they get most of their data from other sources BUT what we need to realize is those other sources he refers to originally stole the data from a dealer DMS. 

I promise you there are thousands of dealers who are totally unaware there are so many vendors taking so much information out of their systems. Clauses hidden in their contracts that went unnoticed.

The larger battle is only beginning.  2012 is the year of The Data Wars we are going to educate the entire industry and we will villainize These Data Pirates and throw them out with the bath water.

Any vendor who is extracting Data, sharing data, re-purposing data, reselling transactional or personally identifiable data... we're putting you on notice... YOU'RE GOING DOWN. 

We realize that some vendors need some information to perform your services, and we urge the dealers to release that data specifically with a firm written agreement that it won't be shared or resold or published. 

AND all data released to a vendor must be signed off by the dealer principal or corporate officer, NOT some low level employee. 

In short, be advised... We're Coming.

Comment by James A. Ziegler on February 7, 2012 at 11:59am

I've decided to wait and see what happens with TrueCar. From the beginning it was never my intent to see them totally destroyed, although that was always Scott Painter's goal to destroy the retail car dealerships. 

If their new business plan restructures them to being another competitive "Lead Provider" ...not setting prices, then I'm all for backing off completely. As a matter of fact, I might want to talk one-on-one with Scott Painter about it. I have other windmills to fight. Right now nobody trusts them.

I had some really sinister things brewing concerning these people, BUT if what I am seeing, reading and hearing is TrueDisclosure I am prepared to back off the tribe and maybe even work with them some. The biggest issue still remains... Is TrueCar willing to get out of the Dealers' DMS systems? Their new business model gives them no need to extract any data at all if they're sincere.

I spoke with hundreds of dealers in the last few days and most of them congratulated and thanked me for spear-heading the Anti-TrueCar movement. 

I saw Michael Timmons at one of the evening events... reached out and shook my hand and told me his name. ... to which I answered... "YES, I know." and I kept on walking. Excuse me! This guy is one of the them. He is the warm and fuzzy, former "AutoNation" guy who I believe is here to soften everyone up on the real issues. I am sure Timmons is a decent guy and all of that BUT I am not yet ready to be pals with these guys. NOW... that is my opinion based on a keen understanding of how this works.

I do not believe TrueCar has a chance unless their board of directors totally removes Scott Painter... too many car people just flat out don't like him, don't believe him or trust him. 

I also believe Charles Kim is a liability to their continued survival. If I were on the TrueCar board of directors, we would have to make a decision concerning Charles' future. 

The incident with Steven Dietz , Partner at GRP Partners messaging me my son's arrest record and arrest photo was, in my opinion, over-the-top tactic by a person who is not decent. It showed me these are not ethical people, nor are they honorable by most people's standards of morality..

Now I am not saying Steven Dietz is a pompous, arrogant, full-of-himself, idiot...that is a decision only you can make based on his actions and self control or lack of it. 

All I can say, is what kind of guy would do the things he's done and made the questionable (by me) decisions he's made? Would you consider this guy to be an out-of-control loose cannon? I don't know the answer to that...read everything and guard your investments is all I can say. If I were an investor I'd run...run very fast...away from anything Steven Dietz and GRP Partners was involved with. Of course this is all my opinion because I am still in a in a surly mood over what he tried to do bringing my family into it. 

I am extremely gratified and relieved that Scott Painter of TrueCar had the decency and the personal integrity to call me personally and apologize for what this Steven Dietz did bringing my family into it.My kid was arrested when he was 21 years old for driving without a license. Who's kid hasn't had something similar at one time or another? AND Steven Dietz was going to use it to blackmail me? 

Comment by Michael Timmons on February 6, 2012 at 3:44pm

@ Michael. I won't speculate on where or how companies like Vauto or Vin Solutions get their data. I believe if you view their company overview you will be able to answer that question. I also believe these are both very good companies that use the data they compile to provide insight into a dealerships business and market place,  This makes for better buying decisions thus making them a valuable tool. I wish that when I owned my used car business in Southern California, I had a tool like Vauto, instead of 10 buyers out using their "Best Thoughts". As for doing business with TC, I know we do not have an affiliation with Vauto and I am unsure of VIN, but don't see why we would.

Comment by Michael Timmons on February 6, 2012 at 3:10pm

@David. Thank you and we will continue in our most recent efforts to make sure our dealers are presented for their service and not focus totally on price as we did in our TV ads.

Comment by Michael Deville on February 6, 2012 at 2:45pm

I'b like to know if Vauto, Vin Solutions are data mining too and are they doing business with TRUECAR??? Please give feed back.

Comment by David T. Gould on February 6, 2012 at 2:35pm

@ Michael Timmons, you have been professional and straight forward with your affiliation to TrueCar and your communications. I respect that and look forward to your continued input. Your participation here gives me hope that someone there can see the picture from this side of the table. Note: I "get" the technology part of what your doing and somewhat admire that, but you (or someone there) has got to figure out that dealers are performing a value added service for consumers.

Comment by Thomas A. Kelly on February 6, 2012 at 1:56pm

I gave "John Zeiglar" the benefit of the doubt too David, right up until my strong suspicions were confirmed by others. At this point Mr.Mankowski appears to me to be very similar to what JZ turned out to be.....a made up sock puppet and like you he will remain that way in my mind until he proves himself otherwise. Until he validates himself or somebody chases him down and invalidates him, either way, I consider him likely to be a shill/sock puppet and I give no weight to his arguments.

Comment by David T. Gould on February 6, 2012 at 1:56pm

@all, I came backwards through Google search and see the same results as clicking on Dealerelite  Robert Mankowski. On my end it shows:

Robert Mankowski's Page

This profile is set to private.

You must be friends with to view this page.


I do not have a problem with Robert Mankowski if he is who he says he is... Anyone is welcome to contribute here. I am just stating here that I don't believe he is who he says he is OR his statements.  Robert Mankowski you are welcome to "friend" me and identify yourself, your dealership and verify your statements. All being so, I will remove my sock puppet opinions. My opinion, sock puppet. 

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